A Time-Lapse Map of Every Nuclear Explosion

[Ded10c]

Spoken like a kid that hasn't paid taxes yet.

How does paying taxes (or not, as the case may be) come into this?

[FirBirGir]

The events of WWII are very complicated (as many events in history are). If you had to boil it down to the bare essentials, look at Allies vs Axis. The Allies worked together and were united and coordinated in their efforts. The Axis never really tried to work together (Germany, Italy and Japan). Each had their own agendas and they each power was too nationalistic and power hungry to care about the others. Ultimately, each Axis power was defeated individually by combined efforts of the Allies.

Yes, Hitler stretch himself too thin but what do you think would have happened if all three Axis powers attacked Russia simultaneously? Do you think Stalin could have kept Hitler occupied long enough for winter to set in or would he have had to split his forces on 3 fronts? Stalin couldn't stop Hitler so he did a strategic retreat to delay Hitler's forces and to stretch their supply lines. Russia paid an ungodly price in lives to do it.

In my opinion, if the Axis powers acted together, WWII would have continued for years longer and Britain and the rest of Europe along with Russia would have fallen.

As for when the US entered the war, the attack on Pearl Harbor was the tipping point. The US Congress and Senate were split about joining the war. There was a strong isolationist movement at that time along with strong nationalist sentiment. Until Pearl Harbor, there was enough resistance to the war to delay our entry. We would have joined eventually to help Britain, discussions were already underway when Japan attacked.

Eddy

[Blunt Force Trauma]

Until Pearl Harbor, there was enough resistance to the war to delay our entry. We would have joined eventually to help Britain, discussions were already underway when Japan attacked.
Eddy

Good points. The only thing is, I would consider the attack on Pearl Harbor more than a tipping point. If the Japanese had done a flyby of several dozen fighters 500 feet over the docks at the harbor and left doing nothing. . .as a threat. . . that may have been a tipping point.

[Ded10c]

For some reason the events at Pearl Harbour is still held against the Japanese by many Americans. Why is this? The Germans have been forgiven. The Italians have been forgiven. Hell, the Japanese have pretty much forgiven America for comitting two of the greatest atrocieties of the entire war.

[Blunt Force Trauma]

I think it may boil down to the principle of a perceived undeserving 'first strike', all the while negotiations were on going with Japan in regard to their invading of IndoChina, Dutch East Indies, etc. I say perceived, because I realize many believe Japan was "deserving" of the oil and raw materials it wanted from those areas it ransacked.

And the dropping of the nukes, by many in the US, saw it as potentially reducing more deaths to our soldiers from a full out invasion of the Japanese mainland. We were merely finishing what Japan had started.

What I find odd is, very little is discussed about the insanity of the incendiary bombings of Tokyo and the dozens of other cities the US did in early '45. McNamara basically says in the documentary, "The Fog of War" he and Lemay would surely be hung as war criminals if the US had lost.

[FirBirGir]

For some reason the events at Pearl Harbour is still held against the Japanese by many Americans. Why is this? The Germans have been forgiven. The Italians have been forgiven. Hell, the Japanese have pretty much forgiven America for comitting two of the greatest atrocieties of the entire war.

The bombing of Japan doesn't come close to the atrocities committed by the Axis powers. Take a look at what Japan did to the natives of the countries they invaded and I don't think we need to mention the Holocaust. Sure, 250,000+ is a big number but between 60-70 million died in WWII. Of those, more than 80% were Allied casualties (military and civilian). The Axis were death machines, killing beyond anything we'd seen before.

As to why we used the bomb, there are two schools of thought. One is as BFT suggested, to avoid a mainland invasion of Japan. The Japanese had shown they would fight to the death throughout the war so many in Truman's war counsel felt that Japan would not surrender, they would sacrifice the entire country instead. The plans for the invasion were complete, you can see them here - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Downfall

The estimates on the death toll vary greatly but it's fair to say more than 250,000 American soldiers would die and over a million Japanese (some of the estimates for conquering Japan had the American casualties at over 1 million and Japanese casualties over 10 million). The Bomb preempted the need to invade, so luckily we will never know.

The other theory was Stalin. Truman was very concerned about communist aggression and hoped that the bomb would temper Stalin's ambitions. We knew that Stalin would develop the atomic bomb with 5-10 years so Truman wanted to make the most of that to contain Stalin and communism.

My opinion is, we dropped the bombs to avoid invading Japan. Cowing Stalin would have been a beneficial consequence but not a deciding factor.

Eddy

[Sno]

For some reason the events at Pearl Harbour is still held against the Japanese by many Americans. Why is this? The Germans have been forgiven. The Italians have been forgiven. Hell, the Japanese have pretty much forgiven America for comitting two of the greatest atrocieties of the entire war.

The attack was carried out when we were not involved in the war. If they followed the force protection protocols like we do now (before 9/11) there was unlikely any weapon loaded and ship/plane readily able to be put into combat. So, in a way, it was almost like attacking an unarmed enemy that doesn't realize they're your enemy. Like BFT said, it was the tipping point. I wouldn't really say Americans still hold the grudge against Japan, certainly wasn't the case when I was at the USS Arizona memorial and saw both Japanese and Americans in awe.

[Ded10c]

-snip-

That's why I said "one of". The Holocaust was the single greatest atrociety of the war, but it is closely followed by Fat Man and Little Boy.

[hitchcockgreen]

-snip-

That's why I said "one of". The Holocaust was the single greatest atrociety of the war, but it is closely followed by Fat Man and Little Boy.

The holocaust wins, hands down, because it was unwarranted. The bombings were arguably unwarranted too, or at least overkill, but given the alternatives at that point in time, there may not have been any better of a choice.

Yes the bombings were horrible on an entirely different scale in that there are people still suffering from the affects of those bombings.

As for America not forgiving... You'd be surprised at how many people still hold a grudge against Germany. And while it's still generalizing, I agree to an extent that some people hold a grudge against Japan. I've met people who still hold that grudge, and I've met a few nutbars that insisted that Japan never attacked the mainland outright because they knew American's carried guns. That made me laugh.

Anyway, what you may not have considered but is absolutely true, is that a lot of people in Asian countries absolutely despise Japan to this day for their imperialist ventures in the last century. Far more in a general population sense than any Western country does. Because they were occupied and subjugated it has left a much deeper mark in their collective psyche.

[RCD2]

I was just jerking your chain AHadley. If we had of had Dr. Manhattan from The Watchmen back then , and gotten him to flash them , done and done war over.

I finally figured out how to script that JWPlayer to my liking and get it to stream decent. If you doc lovers haven't seen that series WWII in Colour yet I posted Victory in the Pacific. It's pretty good.
Blurred Videos

[FirBirGir]

-snip-

That's why I said "one of". The Holocaust was the single greatest atrociety of the war, but it is closely followed by Fat Man and Little Boy.

Psychologically, the bombing of Japan was monumental. But in loss of life, there were so many bigger atrocities

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_war_crimes

Not too many know about Japan's treatment of Asia during their Imperial years. It's sometimes referred to as the Asian Holocaust.

I'd put the Atomic bomb in the top 10 but certainly not in the top 5.

Eddy

[hitchcockgreen]

Psychologically, the bombing of Japan was monumental. But in loss of life, there were so many bigger atrocities

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_war_crimes

Not too many know about Japan's treatment of Asia during their Imperial years. It's sometimes referred to as the Asian Holocaust.

I'd put the Atomic bomb in the top 10 but certainly not in the top 5.

Eddy

Precisely.
This quote is especially chilling:
"Top officers of Unit 731 were not prosecuted for war crimes after the war, in exchange for turning over the results of their research to the United States. They were also reportedly given responsible positions in Japan's pharmaceutical industry, medical schools and health ministry.[47][48]"

[Blunt Force Trauma]

I've read a bit about the Nanking Massacre. Truly horrific. Raping of young girls then executed through the vagina with a sword while fathers were forced to watch. . . type crazy brutality.