'Occupy' Protests

[FirBirGir]

Or anti-capitalist media (which exists in Europe). Looking from the outside, I think it's not hard to imagine that much of OWS looks like anti-capitalism. There are some overt anti-capitalists, the rest are sometimes supposed anti-capitalists based on their actions and their targets...

So if someone is anti-capitalist, they are pro-what?

Eddy

[hitchcockgreen]

You got me there. The way I see it, the only time OWS can truly be called anti-capitalist is when media picks up a mic and talks to some of the stupider fringe elements.
Or some of the tack-on protesters....the ones just looking for a group they can join to get their message across.

I wouldn't say they'd have to be pro-socialist, because socialism isn't that extreme. Communist, maybe? Hard to be romantic about a failed government system like that... fascism? No no no, couldn't be that.

Nope. You got me.

[FirBirGir]

Me too, there are only so many economic and political systems. Maybe feudalism?

If you do a google image search for OWS and anti-capitalism, you'll find plenty of posters that would make one think that OWS is indeed anti-capiltalist. That's a lot different from regulated capitalism that most all democratic nations work under. If you think corruption is bad in capitalist governments, take a close look at socialist and communist governments where corruption is just the greens fees.

[hitchcockgreen]

Actually, I presume that they would prefer some kind of open-market trading system.....one that you'd be hard pressed to have actually work in a modern society.

I can understand wanting to demand fixing capitalism, but if they're going to be walking around demanding we all live in some kind of Amish society then good luck with that.

[Blunt Force Trauma]

Here. . .let me throw some more high octane on the OWS fire.

http://theweek.com/article/index/221919 ... all-street

[hitchcockgreen]

Yes I remember reading about this recently. Outrage, anyone?

[FirBirGir]

And no one is pursuing legal action against him?? Illegal is illegal regardless of how "common" the practice is... I'm always amazed how often we don't enforce existing laws and when held to task for it, our quick answer is to pass more laws.

[hitchcockgreen]

I'm still trying to wrap my head around the 7.7 TRILLION "bailout."

I mean, you don't even have that kind of money.

[FirBirGir]

We just print it....

[hitchcockgreen]

Apparently.

Sent from my GT-I9000 using Tapatalk

[FirBirGir]

Occasionally we print too much and give some to other countries. Want some?

[Dx.]

I thought they already got 1.2 Trillion...

[Sno]

What about the +$6 Trillion discovered missing in a partial Federal Reserve audit?

[Ded10c]

What about the +$6 Trillion discovered missing in a partial Federal Reserve audit?

Ah, so that's where I left it.

[hitchcockgreen]

Occasionally we print too much and give some to other countries. Want some?

Or just to banks....you know, the ones that are so hard done by...so ravaged by the economy.

I'll pass. I don't need a U.S. loan thanks. Our economy is doing ok.

Oh, and off topic, found this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... YHgNfEbRp0

[FirBirGir]

That sounds like my uncle, he seems to know all sorts of secret details on the inner workings of government agencies. I guess saying it makes it so...

No doubt that we conspire against foreign leaders. But name one country that doesn't...

[hitchcockgreen]

America's interference and foreign government control is well documented. Far more than that silly little clip.

There are plenty of countries that don't do this kind of thing.

Simply saying "well look at those guys they do it too" doesn't excuse it nor does it exactly take the road of moral high ground.

[FirBirGir]

lol, since when is government moral? Governments are sworn to protect their own people above all else which means other countries that are deemed a threat are monitored, disrupted and sometimes destroyed. Espionage and war are not moral but they are necessary evils. Sure, we have made our share of mistakes and targeted the wrong guys or missed the mark on calculated guesses. The alternative of ignoring external threats is ludicrous.

Canada does its share of Intelligence, Counterintelligence and espionage work, that's why the CSIS exists - http://www.csis-scrs.gc.ca . There are others in Canada too...

Any country with sufficient resources maintain an either overt or covert (or both) Intelligence organizations. Some countries like to take a back seat and see what the primary players will do about global situations but if it comes down to national security, any government worth having will do what's necessary to protect it's citizens. Canada benefits from the work done by US Intelligence services and openly admits it - http://www.cse-cst.gc.ca/home-accueil/w ... t-eng.html

[hitchcockgreen]

lol, since when is government moral? Governments are sworn to protect their own people above all else which means other countries that are deemed a threat are monitored, disrupted and sometimes destroyed. Espionage and war are not moral but they are necessary evils. Sure, we have made our share of mistakes and targeted the wrong guys or missed the mark on calculated guesses. The alternative of ignoring external threats is ludicrous.

Canada does its share of Intelligence, Counterintelligence and espionage work, that's why the CSIS exists - http://www.csis-scrs.gc.ca . There are others in Canada too...

Any country with sufficient resources maintain an either overt or covert (or both) Intelligence organizations. Some countries like to take a back seat and see what the primary players will do about global situations but if it comes down to national security, any government worth having will do what's necessary to protect it's citizens. Canada benefits from the work done by US Intelligence services and openly admits it - http://www.cse-cst.gc.ca/home-accueil/w ... t-eng.html

A government is the collective representation of it's people. It does indeed have moral obligations, just as much when formulating foreign policy as in domestic policy.
Social policy, is supposed to be a moral obligation, as is protecting it's people. If you did not think your government was fulfilling a moral obligation, then you would not be arguing about their methods of protecting it's people, now would you?

Intelligence gathering and conducting (arguably illegal) black ops in foreign countries are completely different animals and not at all a fair comparison.

And do not presume that ignoring and covert operations are the only options. Here's a pretty brief rundown of some of those covert operations: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Covert_Uni ... ge_actions

The one I'm most curious about (listed elsewhere) is the American backing of Indonesia's invasion of East Timor. Can you justify that one for me?

Yes, Canada has CSIS (how many countries don't have an intelligence agency?). But you don't have to tell me anything about them. I can guarantee I know more about them. My uncle served in CSIS for 20 years before retiring not too long ago. And again, counter-intelligence and surveillance are far different than funding and supporting murder in parts of the world you have no business being in.

And yes, we benefit from US intelligence gathered. As we do from other countries, and as you do as well. That's what being part of Echelon means. We member countries all spy on each other, then share the info with each other (and likely withholding lots of juicy bits).

As I said in an earlier post. Many countries don't want to lift a finger, maybe their little one, in foreign aid and their own defense. They let the superpowers handle it in exchange for support at the UN and elsewhere. The US has indeed made its share of mistakes, bordering on atrocities, however the US has a mountain of brownie points from being the principle player in much of the foreign aid, and of course, saving the world in WW2.

Most countries are serving only their interests. Why lift a finger if there is nothing in it for them? For the majority of WW2 America was one of those countries, but was probably putting money on the Allies as they were lending them aid.
Then Japan attacked them and they went off in the opposite direction of the big fights.
I kid I kid.

[FirBirGir]

I'm not sure how you're applying morality in this sense. Governments are designed to do immoral things to protect its citizens. Where's the morality in war, in killing thousands of humans in the name of us being right and they being wrong? Is it moral to kill someone to protect another? It's justifiable but is it moral? The best decision isn't always the most moral one.

The structures governing governments are designed by the citizens for those same citizens and do not apply outside of that country, just as you wouldn't want Iran's governing principles to be enforced in Canada we don't apply our governing principles to non-citizens. So the right to free speech does not apply to a non-citizen, and of course, we can't go to another country and proclaim that we have the right to speech there either.

I'm not going to defend any particular action or inaction by the US, we could go for days following that line dialog. The vast majority of the time, Intelligence agencies do the best they can do given their knowledge and situations. Sure, things go wrong and people make bad decisions, it comes with the territory. Again, the alternative is not acceptable in my opinion.