'Occupy' Protests

[Blunt Force Trauma]

[hitchcockgreen]

I'm not sure how you're applying morality in this sense. Governments are designed to do immoral things to protect its citizens. Where's the morality in war, in killing thousands of humans in the name of us being right and they being wrong? Is it moral to kill someone to protect another? It's justifiable but is it moral? The best decision isn't always the most moral one.

Well initially in regards to morality I wasn't speaking directly about governments and morality, as the argument can be made that the very existence of government is immoral. I tend to think that the goal is more to create justice in a society. However, that, too, could go on for days.
It's true, war is never really moral, although you argue ethical reasons for participating in one. But we weren't discussing wars, that sort of got tacked on along the way.

The structures governing governments are designed by the citizens for those same citizens and do not apply outside of that country, just as you wouldn't want Iran's governing principles to be enforced in Canada we don't apply our governing principles to non-citizens. So the right to free speech does not apply to a non-citizen, and of course, we can't go to another country and proclaim that we have the right to speech there either.

However, America's laws apply to agents of it's country acting outside of it's borders, and on top of that there are international laws. Take for example Obama's recent decision to kill an alleged traitor of the republic with a drone. This was done without trail (as is required with alleged traitors) and violates not only America's law, but international law too. The unfortunate thing about that is besides some criticism from Obama's opponents, there likely won't be any action taken against him or his administration for that crime. Side note; did anyone catch Bush Jr. cancelling an appearance in Europe over fears of being arrested for War Crimes?

I'm not going to defend any particular action or inaction by the US, we could go for days following that line dialog. The vast majority of the time, Intelligence agencies do the best they can do given their knowledge and situations. Sure, things go wrong and people make bad decisions, it comes with the territory. Again, the alternative is not acceptable in my opinion.

I'm inclined to agree. There are different tiers of Intelligence, and while simple gathering is ok by me, the post 9-11 world sees a level of intelligence gathering that I find unacceptable. Detaining people without charges, due process, and elevated abilities to spy on citizens deteriorates the rights on which our Western countries were founded.
This is not a problem exclusive to America. This is happening in Europe and Canada as well.
Take a look at the proposed Crime Omnibus bill that the Conservative Government is trying to pass here, for example. It's downright frightening. And yes, CSIS and the RCMP both have taken advantage of post 9-11 legislation (which coincidentally came hot on the heels of tougher privacy laws) that allows them to detain and torture without due process.

[hitchcockgreen]

Heh

Particularly in the case of the NYPD this is actually the case. Next year they're getting some big cuts, I've read.

[hitchcockgreen]

Damnit, man. It's a muppet movie.

Oh, line that made me LOL was at about 1:32

http://mediamatters.org/mmtv/201112020036

[Blunt Force Trauma]

[Sno]

I like all the OWS signs that call for shutting down Wall Street, do these fools realize that Wall Street has foreign investments? Shutting it down will cripple the economy to a point of no return, watch that $1 be worth $0.05 in pesos. True, the fat cats give it a bad rep, but OWS needs to distinguish the honest from the greedy. I feel that they label it one thing and attack without actually researching economics and the companies they're mad at.

[FirBirGir]

Its the government they need to be mad at. An occasional bailout might make sense but spending trillions to bailout a bunch of businesses is like passing out Get Out of Jail Free cards. Those businesses should have failed and we'd be over it by now. Instead we traded the shorter term bank/business failures into decades (or more likely centuries) long debt and perpetuated the recession. All the talk about buying our way out of the recession hasn't worked.

The businesses that failed are at fault and should have suffered the consequences of their mismanagement. We didn't bail out Enron or Worldcom and we survived those. By bailing out all of these companies, the government has endorsed their poor behavior...

[hitchcockgreen]

+1

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[hitchcockgreen]

LAPD at their finest.

http://myoccupylaarrest.blogspot.com/20 ... ighan.html

[hitchcockgreen]

http://goo.gl/e37Fx

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[BZROM]

Times - Top Ten Protest Signs of 2011

[hitchcockgreen]

Interesting....

"They've got a set of Republican waiters on one side and a set of Democratic waiters on the other side, but no matter which set of waiters brings you the dish, the legislative grub is all prepared in the same Wall Street kitchen." - Huey Long, 1932


Here's some more prescient quotes from Governor Long.
"We do not propose to say that there shall be no rich men. We do not ask to divide the wealth. We only propose that, when one man gets more than he and his children and children's children can spend or use in their lifetimes, that then we shall say that such person has his share. That means that a few million dollars is the limit to what any one man can own."
"God told you what the trouble was. The philosophers told you what the trouble was; and when you have a country where one man owns more than 100,000 people, or a million people, and when you have a country where there are four men, as in America that have got more control over things than all the 120 million people together, you know what the trouble is."
"The Democratic Party and the Republican Party were just like the old patent medicine drummer that used to come around our country. He had two bottles of medicine. He'd play a banjo and he'd sell two bottles of medicine.
One of those bottles of medicine was called High Popalorum and another one of those bottles of medicine was called Low Popahirum. Finally somebody around there said is there any difference in these bottles of medicines? 'Oh,' he said, 'considerable. They're both good but they're different,' he said.
'That High Popalorum is made from the bark off the tree that we take from the top down. And that Low Popahirum is made from the bark that we take from the root up.'
And the only difference that I have found between the Democratic leadership and the Republican leadership was that one of 'em was skinning you from the ankle up and the other from the ear down — when I got to Congress."
"We shall have to say right here and now that the hand of imperial finance shall not go farther into its strangulation of the American people and that the hand of imperialistic banking control shall be decentralized instead of centralized in America."
His "Share Our Wealth" program:
Cap personal fortunes at $50 million each — equivalent to about $600 million today (later reduced to $5 - $8 million, or $60 - $96 million today)
Limit annual income to one million dollars each (about $12 million today)
Limit inheritances to five million dollars each (about $60 million today)
Guarantee every family an annual income to one-third the national average
Free college education and vocational training
Old-age pensions for all persons over 60
Veterans benefits and healthcare
A 30 hour work week
A four week vacation for every worker
Greater regulation of commodity production to stabilize prices

[Sno]

There are alot of comical things wrong with that.


Cap personal fortunes at $50 million each — equivalent to about $600 million today (later reduced to $5 - $8 million, or $60 - $96 million today)
Limit annual income to one million dollars each (about $12 million today)
Limit inheritances to five million dollars each (about $60 million today)
Guarantee every family an annual income to one-third the national average

Won't happen, unless we block ourselves from the world and not allow anyone to enter NOR leave. Our currency wouldn't be worth jack @@@@ in other countries. Hey kids, there's no limit to your idea's unless you actually succeed at making them come true!

Free college education and vocational training

Yessss, that means all the kids who had smart kids do all their homework in high school can do it in college along with giving them all the work in group settings.

Old-age pensions for all persons over 60

Tell that to my dad and he'll probably splash holy water on you

A 30 hour work week

Less hours = less money = less business

A four week vacation for every worker

Even the kid that flips my burgers?

[hitchcockgreen]

Hehe yeah and when you read about ol' Huey you'll find he was a fairly corrupt politician.

He has some points about power distribution.

The free college wouldn't be bad. I mean, you'd still need the grades to get in...and you know as well as I do Sno that there are plenty of kids in college and university now that got there on charm alone.

Typically these kids flunk out pretty fast...or end up in business school.



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[Ded10c]

College is free in this country and we didn't turn out too badly. If you can't be bothered you end up laying bricks for the rest of your life, if you do the work you get a decent job out of it.

[Sno]

@AHadley

How do the professors get paid? This all through taxes?

[hitchcockgreen]

It would be taxes and speaking engagements (plus profits from writing texts if it applies), Sno.

Socialism is not the devil. In some instances socialized services are created to bring about a more just society.

In my case healthcare was deemed a civil right and so everyone gets it. It's not completely universal....still have health insurance for pharmaceutical needs, dental work and specialized services like seeing an optometrist and there are also private clinics.

It's somewhat similar in the UK.

Correct me if I am wrong, AHadley, but doctors have to "do their time" serving the public before they can open a private practice, correct? And that private practice is subsidized by the gov?

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[FirBirGir]

Socialized healthcare isn't free of course, it's paid for by taxes. A decent healthcare program in the States is not much different. I pay premiums instead of taxes, I can chose any doctor within my program (it's probably similar in Canada and UK, correct?) and things like physicals, flu shots, etc are at no extra cost to me.

The question comes down to serious medical conditions like major surgery or life-threatening conditions. How does socialized healthcare stack up against for-pay healthcare? I have several friends that live in Canada (other than Hitch) that say they always come to the US for significant health issues (more than routine healthcare). They say it's because they want the best care they can get and are willing to pay for it, and they don't like their options where they live. The information on the Canadian healthcare system is all over the spectrum so I can't really vouch for their comments...

Do you know why dental and vision health were not considered a civil right in Canada, Hitch? We have limits on specialized care but most insurance programs cover medical, dental and vision.

Eddy

[hitchcockgreen]

Socialized healthcare isn't free of course, it's paid for by taxes. A decent healthcare program in the States is not much different. I pay premiums instead of taxes, I can chose any doctor within my program (it's probably similar in Canada and UK, correct?) and things like physicals, flu shots, etc are at no extra cost to me.

The question comes down to serious medical conditions like major surgery or life-threatening conditions. How does socialized healthcare stack up against for-pay healthcare? I have several friends that live in Canada (other than Hitch) that say they always come to the US for significant health issues (more than routine healthcare). They say it's because they want the best care they can get and are willing to pay for it, and they don't like their options where they live. The information on the Canadian healthcare system is all over the spectrum so I can't really vouch for their comments...

Do you know why dental and vision health were not considered a civil right in Canada, Hitch? We have limits on specialized care but most insurance programs cover medical, dental and vision.

Eddy

Quality of healthcare varies, as it does anywhere, with location. When I've lived in larger cities I'd had no problem getting or seeing the very best of doctors. Smaller places have less of a choice there.
I believe that there are programs in place here where those who had studied to become doctors on students loans can get a break on paying those back if they put in time in smaller communities. Especially the further north you go.
As you can imagine, Iqaluit isn't exactly producing a lot of doctors of it's own. And yes, you can chose any doctor you like, in any province you like, without penalty or fee.

So therein lies the difference. I don't think it has anything to do with the types of systems because as you've pointed out, in essence, they are the same. What kind of quality of care would one expect in an American town of say 10-14000 people? Likely nowhere near on par with what you would get in a city.

Yes, there are Canadians that will go South to see specialists for real or perceived reasons, and yet I've also heard stories of American doctors referring patients to Canadian doctors.

As for vision or dental, I think the reason it isn't automatically covered because neither are deemed life-threatening at any point. Or maybe they simply had to draw a line in the sand somewhere.
My healthcare plan is really good, actually (provided through my employer). About 80% of any pharmaceutical needs are covered, same for dental. Get a couple of free eye glasses and frames with that each year (although i don't need them just yet) - hell, even have massages and chiropractic treatments covered.
Technically those services aren't free in most regards, but there are always free clinics where one can get those services.

So technically, no socialized health-care isn't free, per se, but there are also no limits as to who can get it whereas with medical care with most providers in the U.S. you cannot get insurance in some instances where you might already have a terminal illness, correct? So if someone who does not qualify for health insurance has an accident for something somewhat minor, such as breaking a leg, they've got to pay a pretty penny to get patched up.

[FirBirGir]

Preexisting condition clauses vary by state and by insurance program. I have had 5 or 6 different insurance companies and I haven't yet run into a preexisting condition clause, so it's not always an issue. Plus, when you are looking for work, benefits are a big part of the decision. Even when the economy is down, companies use benefits to help attract and retain quality talent. If the benefits suck, people go elsewhere.

There are tons of free clinics in the US, they aren't mandated though and doctors aren't required to work in them (but many do of course). The rub comes when it becomes a government managed program where costs are higher and rules and restrictions are put into place. Now something that was a charity becomes an government institution with all the associated political baggage.

By the way, why does healthcare as a civil right mean it has to be free (of course nothing is really free)? I have the right to own property but I pay for it year after year through various taxes, and don't get me started on how much "pursuit of happiness" is costing me.